This one goes out to all the up-and-coming writers looking to break into the entertainment industry. Fair warning: There’s no secret formula stashed in here, but thanks to Emmy-nominated writers who generously take the time to let me talk to them, like John Thibodeaux, we know some really helpful tips.
John started his comedy career as an improvisor at both Second City and IO in Chicago, where he co-founded the nationally-touring improv team, 3Peat. He has now been a writer for “The Late Show with Stephen Colbert” for two years. I was lucky enough to sit down with John in a Starbucks across from the “Late Show” building to talk comedy and hear about how his career path has led him to such success. He left me with some insightful nuggets of wisdom for any aspiring comedian or writer, that I couldn’t help but share. My gift to you:
John: I wrote a packet for [The Late Show]. They had a call for writers and then I wrote a packet to get the job. But by that point after I finished touring I started writing regularly at Second City for their corporate comedy division. So we’d write sketches based on interviews you do with someone, like, in HR at this company. Like, “Oh, we’re going to have a Christmas party and the boss always does this thing. How about you guys do jokes about that?” You know? So I’d write all those very basic general comedy sketches for those types of things. And that was really helpful because you just get practice pounding out scripts. And that put me in a position where I was confident enough in my writing so by the time it was time to write the packet… What I did was I had a week to write the packet, and I just added on a half hour every day I would stay after and just write some jokes, and then at the end of the week was like, “Oh, these jokes are good, these jokes are bad.” Just put them all together.
Stephen: So that is just kind of a thing they do every once in a while, just put out [a call for writers]… ?
John: When I applied it was rare because they put out a general thing, it was an ad posting on CBS.com, like, “We’re looking for a comedy writer.” This was like, everyone applied. But most of the time in the industry if you have a friend with an agent or a manager then they’ll know when shows are looking for more people, and so … Yeah, you just kind of have to have your ear to the ground to know when people are looking for more people, and then also have the skills that are necessary at that point in time. Everything’s got to line up, you know?
“…the barriers to entry are so low, just do the thing.”
Stephen: Interesting. That’s cool.
John: Yeah. But the best way you can be ready is to do the thing that you already want to do. Just, do the thing that you want to do, it won’t be as popular or you won’t get paid for it, you know? Maybe you’ll get paid a tiny amount, but … the barriers to entry are so low, just do the thing.
Stephen: And then I guess leads right into…day-to-day, 9 to 5 at Colbert, what’s your …
John: Yeah, day-to-day… I get in at, like, 8:30. Between 8 and 8:30 and write some jokes about the news story of the day. We have a research department that sends out an email, and the email has all the top stories of what people are talking about, and the president’s schedule, and stuff that might come up today. So I read it on the way to work and when I get to work write some jokes, and an idea for a destination. Maybe…we do a fake ad for this political candidate, or we have Stephen [Colbert] put on a little wig and do a little speech or something, you know? And so you put together a pitch, which is two or three jokes, and a destination.
And then by the time 9 o’clock rolls around, we have a meeting with just the writers. You know, you add jokes to other people’s pitches, and then we sort of formulate everything that we want to talk about. And then 9:30 comes around, we have a bigger meeting with executive producers and some people in production, and Stephen is normally there. That’s the start of his day. Then we pitch the same stuff around the room again, and judge responses and stuff like that. That second meeting lasts from 9:30 to 10:30. At 10:30 all the scripts are assigned, so we write in pairs. So two people will work on, like, the new allegation against Kavanaugh, Two people will work on that script. And then this whole Rod Rosenstein thing is happening again. Two people will work on that script. They each pair off and ultimately it’s six teams of people are writing scripts, and then you have from the end of that meeting 10:30 till 12:30, you have two hours to get your first draft in.
Stephen: Wow.
John: Yeah, and then … the scripts run three to four minutes, so it’s like you write three to four minutes of comedy with your script partner, and then you turn that in. Like half the staff gets the chance to grab lunch, the other half of staff goes in with the executive producer and they read all the scripts out loud, basically judge quality. And then from there it all gets smashed together into a first draft of the monologue.
So Stephen will rehearse it at 3:00, and then after we rehearse it at 3:00, from 4:00 to 5:30 it gets rewritten, and then during that time there’re things we call “dollar signs.” Like, okay the joke didn’t work, or we want a different take on the joke, and they put a dollar sign on the script where that is, and then the people who are in charge of punching up that day will write six or seven alternate punch lines for those jokes that aren’t working. So we work on that stuff. And then the show gets rewritten in a little bunker-type room underneath the stage from 4:00 to 5:30, and then they start recording at 5:30.
Stephen: So the show is pretty much written right before …
John: Yeah. We dot the I’s, cross the T’s, Stephen leaves the room, goes on stage, and then it gets sent straight to the prompter.
Stephen: That’s insane.
John: And then he says the words.
Stephen: And it is always the day-of you write the show?
John: Yeah, yeah. At 9:00 a.m. no one has any idea what the show’s going to be that day.
Stephen: Is there ever a point where you’re like, “These aren’t working. We have these scripts that we didn’t use from last week, let’s just use those,” or is it …You just have to make something work?
John: Most of the time we have to make something work, but we come at it from an attitude of volume and then cut it down. So with all those scripts you have six people writing three minutes, so it’s going to be 18 minutes of comedy, and then from the first draft that gets cut down to probably about 12, it goes into rehearsal, he rehearses it. And then that’ll get cut down … They’ll cut another three, four minutes out. So it just gets whittled down, you know? Start with too much and then that avoids getting to 5:30 and being like, “We got nothin’, boss!” You know? That could never happen.
Stephen: (laughs) I see. I saw on your Facebook when the double negative … the Schoolhouse Rock thing … Wasn’t that a day-of kind of thing?
John: That was day-of, yeah.
Stephen: I saw you in one of the comments, you were talking about you just kind of wrote it, recorded at 3:00, and then was up at 5:00. It sounds insane.
John: Yeah. It was crazy. Luckily we pitched it somewhat early in the morning and then so the animator was like, “Okay. I will make this.” We messed around with the words a little bit but they were working on it from the morning as far as the animation was concerned, and then the audio we just slapped on top.
Stephen: I guess more just on your personal, as a comedian, are you still working on personal projects? Do you have … You go to work every day and you do this, but then do you have a vision for moving through onto some next thing or doing something while you’re doing this?
John: Yeah. I mean, being in a group like 3Peat we travel around and do shows. We made a short with Comedy Central last year, oh, this year actually, in February. We’re thinking about doing more projects as a group but also individually. I feel like ever since I started doing comedy in Chicago it’s always like, I’m doing this thing now, but in two to three years I want to be doing this other thing. So I’ve always dreamed of working in a more scripted area, like dealing with characters. Like writing a TV show. Late Night is a way to get your foot in the door, you know? I don’t know if I would want to write line jokes for the rest of my life, but it’s a wonderful living and a good job, and definitely helps you get better at understanding … a certain specific comedic voice. Like, Stephen’s voice is not my voice. Ultimately I want to do something more in my voice, but …At work, that is my job… it’s to put my brain inside of his brain.
Stephen: Did that take a little bit to figure out?
John: Yeah, it takes a while and also it’s a constant struggle because the voice of the show, too, changes a little bit. Has changed since I got there, just because of the nature of how Stephen’s feeling and also how the world is responding to everything.
Stephen: How much is he involved? Does he have a lot of creative direction over where material is going?
John: Yeah. It’s 100% him. I mean, it’s not 100% him because a lot of people work there, but ideally we are pitching to him, and if he likes it then it’s on TV. You know? He’s the gatekeeper, final gatekeeper. Like, in that rewrite room, he is standing, pacing, reading the monologue as we’re punching it up. Like, “Change this, do that. Let’s put this here.” You know? It’s very collaborative, and that he’s the creative boss and we’re all just working for him.
Stephen: That’s interesting.
“…the number one mistake is probably waiting for the validation of other people before I tried to do things on my own.”
John: I would imagine it’s somewhat similar in a lot of the other shows because if I was the host … His name’s on the building, you know? You’re not going to argue with that guy. You can’t overrule him. And ultimately he’s the guy that has to go out there and say it. So if he doesn’t want to say it then he doesn’t say it.
Stephen: I see. Everyone’s interested in making it … By a lot of standards you’re “in it” now. It’s cool knowing the things you did well. Are there any things you wish you did … things that you would have done differently career-path-wise that you think would be helpful … mistakes you made?
John: I think, yeah, the number one mistake is probably waiting for the validation of other people before I tried to do things on my own. Second City is great but I think a lot of people fall into the Second City trap of, like, “Once I get on Tour Co, or once they hire me for this thing I’ll be able to … Then I’ll make it!” You know? But that’s not the way it works. You have to actively pursue the thing that you want without searching for the validation of some organization. You know? You don’t have to wait for Second City to tell you that you’re funny. Just go out and be what you think is funny. And eventually those institutions will come around. You’ve got them. They don’t got you.
Stephen: I guess that’d be just doing your own YouTube videos, channels, that kind of thing?
John: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Find people that you enjoy working with, you and your friends. You’re already doing it. And do the stuff that you want to do. And a lot of times the places with money behind them, these big institutions are slow to come around on what the future of comedy is. They’re slaves to their audiences…Some institution’s not going to give you your comedic voice, you have to go find it. You know that. You do standup.
Stephen: That’s true.
John: Which is the most pure of, like, “I’m doing it for me.” You know?
Stephen: Yeah, because you’re not doing it for anyone else.
John: That and start writing early, I would say. I got trapped in the improv world of like, “I don’t have to write anything! I’m just going to go up on stage and make fun things!” You know?
Stephen: (laughs) That’s true, yeah.
John: Writing is a skill that you can get paid for. So … Nobody pays for improv unless you’re one of the very lucky few.
Stephen: Is writing only valuable insofar as your writing gets produced? Or is it good to just have writing … just have things ready?
John: Yeah, just have things ready, I would say.
Stephen: People would still care about it?
John: Yeah, I mean you always want to have … It depends on what your end career goal is, but if you want to break into television and stuff, one way to do it is to be a writer and if you want to do that, always at least have a good half hour sample ready to go, you know? Which I think is a fun experiment because now … It used to be that you had to write a spec. People would write a Simpsons episode or a 30 Rock episode. So people would read it and be able to evaluate your knowledge of the character. But I feel like this is one way that comedy’s evolving a little bit, at least in the hiring process: Your sample can almost be anything. If it’s good people will want it and search it out and recognize the quality of it no matter if it’s in the voice of an already existing show or not. Like people use one act plays sometimes as samples, and stuff like that. But it’s also just an exploration of what do I … If I could write any TV show and have it put on TV, what would it be? And that’s a fun experience and daunting at first, but once you start answering those questions then you find out what your sensibility is. You know?
Stephen: Is that a lot of what went into your writing for … Was your packet that you wrote for them your own voice?
John: Oh, the packet for a late night show is a spec. So, I mean, that was a page of monologue jokes, some bits for guests to do, some confessions, some cold opens. Oh and I had a longer desk piece. You pretty much write an episode of the show almost. Well that’s what it was when I applied. And then The Late Show got some push back because, like, this is too much free work! (laughs) Because you’re writing it all on spec, you know, not getting paid. So the most recent round we hired a couple more writers less than a year ago, six months, eight months ago, and it was the most recent round was a much shorter version of the packet. It was just monologue jokes and maybe some confessions or whatever. So it depends what show you’re applying for but normally late night is like, “Okay, do the thing that we do.” Yeah. But in the scripted area it’s more like, “Who are you? We already show know who you are.” Kind of? Sadly enough. And “Also, give us a sample.”
Stephen: Your whole background is improv. You still use improv skills in your writing? Or how much is it influencing your work right now?
John: It’s a certain way of thinking that’s very helpful. Yeah, when you’re facing a blank page it’s just like standing on a stage and being there without anything, you know? Sometimes I try to look at writing as … The suggestion is the thing that happened, you know? And then how would I improvise around that? And then just throw down the first things that come to your head, and then you can reform and reshape it into something that’s actually palatable. Because when you improvise straight onto the page through your keyboard it’s going to be very raw.
Stephen: Yeah.
John: But that’s the way I like writing. It’s just almost like stream of consciousness, then let’s sweep it all up, figure out what I really meant there, you know?
Stephen: And whittle it down?
John: Yeah, whittle it down for sure. And then sometimes a perfect joke just comes off … comes right out of your mouth, you know? Oh, this thing happened? Well then this funny thing … You know? But those are the easy times. You don’t have to plan for that. That’s not the skill. The skill is to be like, “Hmm. Let me look at this and see what is actually going on.”
Interviewed by Stephen Kipp | Head Writer